So there are clearly some old-school gender dynamics going on in the world of The Wheel of Time. High fantasy stories generally tend to; it’s an assumed-inevitability of the ancient European type settings many such tales enjoy. But The Wheel of Time has something a little different than those other Tolkien-esque tales do; a set-up in which the very driving force of creation is made up of two parts, male and a female, which by working in opposition to each other turn the the eponymous Wheel of Time.
What does it mean to have not just societal convention but the very essence of creation dictating the qualities and roles of men and women in this world? I have a few thoughts.
Hello friends! It’s week two of Reading The Wheel of Time, and I’m here to talk about what happens when your magic system (and the very fabric of existence) is broken into distinct male and female halves. I’m guessing this is going to be something I will want to revisit later in the read, but I’d like to get started with some initial impressions and predictions of what might be to come. Those of you who already know how this all plays out can continue to enjoy knowing more than I do, but don’t forget to watch your spoilers!
This week’s installment of Reading The Wheel of Time covers Chapters 9 through 13.
Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earthsea series contains a rather gender-unbalanced magical system, where only men are powerful enough to become true magic users, or wizards, and women’s magic is much weaker. Witches are generally disliked by other people, considered evil or tricky; and as such women are pretty marginalized and are perceived as lesser than men. That isn’t to say that downside of the “male” characteristics aren’t addressed, however. The wizard Ged’s reckless pride and machismo often cause him trouble, and part of his journey through the books is learning the maturity and self understanding to use his magic wisely and effectively.
So far in my read of The Eye of the World, I believe every female character has at some point referred to men as being some combination of arrogant, clumsy, and stupid. The Women’s Council of the Two Rivers is apparently the real power controlling the village, even though there is also a Village Council and a mayor, who are officially in charge. The difference between the characterization of Brandelwyn al’Vere, the mayor, and the Wisdom Nynaeve al’Meara is striking to me. Brand is a solid person in Rand’s eyes; calming, trustworthy, and dependable. The narration makes the reader feel safe with him. Nynaeve, on the other hand, comes off as a bit of a nag. She scolds Rand and his friends rather soundly early in the book, and although the boys are chastened by her words and the power of her position as Wisdom, they don’t particularly heed her or her advice once she’s out of sight. She seems to have a temper and is easily frustrated, too.
Of course, Moiraine has an elegance and a gravitas to rival anyone, and Rand and the boys respect that. But they also fear her, her ties to the Aes Sedai (who all the stories say are dangerous and untrustworthy), and the power of her magic. I find it interesting to see how these women are distrusted for using magic when the very reason magic is considered so untrustworthy is because of the actions of men. I do find it incredibly resonant that the women of this world are simultaneously relied upon for their abilities to heal and help and are considered suspect and dangerous for possessing them.
Starting back at Chapter 9, the departure from Two Rivers doesn’t go quite as smoothly as Moiraine and Lan would wish. First, Rand tells his father all about what is happening. Then Mat and Perrin— despite following Moiraine’s instructions not to tell anyone that they are leaving—manage to attract the attention of Egwene, who shows up in the stables as they are preparing to leave and demands to come along. But despite Rand’s protests and Lan’s reservations, Moiraine surprises everyone by agreeing that Egwene should come with them, overriding Lan’s objections by commenting simply that Egwene’s choice is now “part of the Pattern.” Their party is further augmented by Thom, who has managed to overhear their conversation by hiding out in the loft. Sneaking out in the night proves a bit more tricky with the villagers on guard after the Trolloc attack, but avoiding a group of men with pitchforks and patchwork armor is nothing compared to dodging the creature Rand spots in the night sky.
Moiraine and Lan explain that the creature, which looks to Rand like a giant bat, is a Draghkar, a servant of the Dark One, like Trollocs and Myrddraal, and that if it has not already spotted them, it will soon. They instruct the party to take off, and while the boys are riding fast horses that were bought by Lan just for this, Egwene’s mount is Bela, Rand and Tam’s old farm horse. Rand is worried that she will not be able to keep up, and that Bela and Egwene will be left behind. He silently urges the horse onward, feeling a strange chill in his bones, and somehow the horse quickens, running as fast as the others, even seeming less tired than the other horses when the party finally stops to rest. But the Draghkar soon swoops over them, spooking the horses and letting Moiraine know that it has already reported their location to its superiors. As they race toward the ferry, Rand begins to see a fog appearing, first in scattered spots, and then in a bank that hides them from view. The fog feels unnaturally chilling to the touch, and Rand realizes that it has been created by Moiraine.
They reach the town of Taren Ferry, where the river and ferry (as the name would suggest) are located, and Lan uses a combination of money and intimidation to get the ferry master to take them across, despite the fact that it is not yet dawn. Once on the other side Lan distracts the ferry workers with more gold while Moiraine sinks the ferry by creating a whirlpool. Rand and his friends have many questions about the mist and the sinking of the ferry, but except for explaining that she is shrouding the river as a diversion to make the Draghkar think they are traveling on it, Moiraine isn’t in the mood to be questioned.
Moiraine also uses her magic to strengthen the party as they travel, removing the physical and mental effects of fatigue and aiding them in sleep. She also tells Egwene that, the moment Moiraine first saw her in the village, she knew that Egwene was one of the very few with a strong innate “spark” for the ability to channel the One Power. She explains to Egwene how her “change” will soon come upon her and how she will suffer and could even die without instruction in how to channel. She also explains how the male half of the Power is tainted, describing it as covered by a filth like oil lying on the surface of water; the water is still pure, but unable to be touched without becoming fouled by the contaminant. Egwene is nervous but excited at the prospect of becoming an Aes Sedai, wanting the reassurance that only the male half of the Power is evil, and so then only men can be evil. But Moiraine explains that the men who “broke the world” were not evil but insane, and that the Power is only a tool. The women who now wield it, she says, are as complex and different, good or bad, as any other group of women. She also accidentally mentions that there is another woman with the ability in Two Rivers, but declines to say who.
Rand isn’t sure how he feels about all this Aes Sedai learning, however. He eavesdrops on some of Egwene’s lessons, but like everyone else, including Perrin and Mat, he is still uncertain of Moiraine and her motives, skeptical of the Power in general and of the Aes Sedai. He also seems to resent Egwene’s ambition, and when she decides that she will no longer wear her hair braided, as is the custom of the adult women of the Two Rivers, he gets into an argument with her over it, even going so far as to loudly compare the Aes Sedai to Darkfriends, servants of the Dark One. After that, he and Egwene don’t talk to each other.
Mat talks a lot, on the other hand. Except for Rand and Egwene’s arguments and Lan training the boys in the use of their weapons, their journey post-ferry is quiet, so Mat decides that they’ve outrun the danger and that there is no reason to go all the way to see the Aes Sedai at Tar Valon when instead they could just go and explore the world. But Moiraine assures them, quite firmly, that they are still, and always will be, in danger. She tells them that the Dark One wants them, and that she would kill them herself rather than allow him to have what he wants.
On that sobering note they arrive at Baerlon, where Moiraine and Lan are known under pseudonyms and folks are on edge because of the presence of Whitecloaks, also known as the Children of the Light. A chatty gatekeeper confides that the Children are probably all worked up over the existence of a possible Dragon Reborn, or maybe of a battle involving the Aes Sedai, and Moiraine is clearly concerned, although she keeps her reaction reserved and her thoughts to herself. Lan guides them to an inn called the Stag and Lion while Thom tells Rand a little more about the prophecies about the Dragon Reborn, most of which is somewhat gibberish to Rand.
* * *
Moiraine’s instruction to Egwene on using saidar, the female half of the One Power, give us our first look into how the magical system works. I was intrigued when Egwene complained that it was unfair for men to be stronger in earth and fire while women’s abilities lay more in air and water. When she states that men have the stronger abilities, Moiraine corrects her, pointing out that there is no mountain so strong that it cannot be worn away by water, and no fire so great that a wind cannot blow it out. Thus, the idea of the two sides of the Power seem to operate on a principle like that of yin and yang in Chinese philosophy. The idea here is that the two sides are exact opposites, but that they are equal in strength and in importance in the proper functioning of the universe.
I actually really like this idea. It’s an old one, but it’s a classic for a reason. C.S. Lewis uses it, a little less obviously but I think very intentionally, with the White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. Jadis is feminine, associated with darkness, cold, and winter, and she possesses the power of transformation. All these are associated with Yin. Aslan is masculine, associated with light and the sun, warmth, youth and renewal, and has the power to provide form to existence. All these are qualities that belong to Yang. Of course, Jadis is evil and Aslan is good, which is where we depart into a more western Christian philosophy, but even in the idea of good vs. evil there is a notion of balance. Jadis’s claim on Edmund’s life and Aslan’s subsequent sacrifice are only possible because the magic of the world demands such a balance, because the good belong to Aslan and his world and the evil belong to Jadis’s.
In Jordan’s universe, water belongs to yin and fire belongs to yang, just as water (and air) are the sides that women channelers are stronger in, and fire (and earth) appeal best to male channelers. It also seems that men have more raw power and strength, while women’s abilities are about technique and skill. Maybe patience, too. Interestingly, the physical descriptions seem to fit with the skill sets, men like Lews Therin Telamon are physically large and powerful, whereas all three channeling women we have encountered so far are described as being very petite, pretty, and big eyed. (Note: I’m making a guess here that Nynaeve is the Two Rivers woman Moiraine alluded to. Ya’ll know the drill; don’t give it away!)
I wonder if this idea of balance and cooperation between the two sides will have any relevance as we learn more about what happened to Lews Therin and the polluting of saidin. Since only men were involved in the Breaking of the World, perhaps it was due to the fact that both sides were apparently not working together during the assault on the Dark One that resulted in the madness that male channelers experience. No balance, and thus the world is broken.
I’m also curious to know whether using the Power feels the same for both male and female channelers. I noticed that cold has been associated with magic use a few times; Rand notices that the fog Moiraine created seeps an unnatural cold into his skin, and when he willed Bela to run faster in what appears to be unconscious channeling, he felt as if “his bones were freezing.” Of course there’s the taint of saidin to worry about, but after that, do the two sides feel different to work with? Is saidar more delicate and precise, while saidin feels more like a blunt weapon? Or is the difference more about the human beings who channel the magic, rather than the magic itself?
I have to admit, I have some serious reservations about sharp personality and purpose divides based on gender. I would like the idea of two equal and opposing sides better if it were more random, like two Hogwarts houses determined by your natural skillset, rather than having your natural skillset predetermined by your gender. As it is, I have a suspicion that despite Moiraine’s assurances to Egwene, the action and the narration are going to lean very heavily into “male” heroism and strength, that this is their story and it’s going to feel like their world. Binary divisions in general are problematic, and as we all know, separate but equal is never really equal. After all, if there are two sides to the One Power, shouldn’t there be two Dragons, one for each side? I feel like part of the theme of the series is going to be about re-achieving balance, but if it’s only Rand responsible for fixing his previous incarnation’s mistakes, I don’t feel like that is true balance at all.
That being said, it is far too early to tell where the series is going to go. But I can tell you know thing I do know, which is that sooner or latter, Mat’s big mouth is going to get him, and the rest of the party, into trouble.
Think I’m right? Already know because you’ve been a loyal fan of these books for years? Either way, I hope you’ll join me next time for talk of inns and innkeepers, bad dreams (or are they memories?) and the fact that no group calling themselves “the Children” of something is ever a good thing. (Chapters 14-17)
Sylas Barrett lives and works in Brooklyn. He’s not a fan of the binary but he is big fan of water magic, and would very much like to make whirlpools.
Without any spoilers, I feel comfortable in assuring you that the story will not be solely focused on the men’s heroics.
Also avoiding spoilers, I feel comfortable telling you that Jordan’s giving us the “general gist” of the One Power in these chapters. Future books will show exceptions to the “women are stronger in water and air, men stronger in fire and earth” that end up being quite satisfying and rather strongly plot-relevant.
@KalvinKingsley: Fantastic. If nothing else, I know that a series like this is going to have lots of surprises in store for me. I look forward to revising and refining my opinions from this post in the chapters–and books!– to come. :)
In my experience of fantasy magic users of either sex tend to be regarded with suspicion by the non magical. Often this is justified. Let’s just say Aes Sedai as a class are not purer than the driven snow.
In my experience of fantasy magic users of either sex tend to be regarded with suspicion by the non magical. Often this is justified. Let’s just say Aes Sedai as a class are not purer than the driven snow.
@princessroxana: Oh for sure. I barely know anything about the Aes Sidai and already I’m getting a sense that I’m dealing with the Bene Gesserit from Dune. An elite controlling power is rarely a good thing!
@OP and @2:
One thing about a series written in installments over 25+ years is that careful observation may reveal some of the unconscious biases of the author subtly shift over that time frame.
But you are right, some of these differences are hard-coded into the cosmology RJ has created. But there are quite a few notable exceptions. It would definitely be as bad for someone to apply generalities to specific individuals in the WoT as it would in the real world. What is generally true across groups of people varies wildly when you drill down to specific individuals. Generalities may be a good way to study cultures and societies, but they are a horrible way to try to understand the individuals who make up that culture.
KJB@5:
That’s an apt comparison. There are a lot of similarities to the Bene Gesserit. They were definitely an influence on the world building of the Aes Sedai.
@anthony Pero: This is an interesting point you raise. I think that one of the struggles of creators is how to walk that line. You want to avoid the generalities that are so bad in real life because what you write is not in a vacuum, and art and real world always reflect and feed into each other. But at the same time you are dealing with tropes, generalities, and symbolism for a reason, and the complexities of real life are far too great to be told in true objective detail within one story. Even if it does span 14 novels! On the other hand (third hand?), even if I end up lukewarm about the gender framing device of the One Power, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I won’t enjoy other aspects of it, or that I won’t enjoy the characters in their own rights, which I think is fascinating as well.
Actually, there are some pretty great internet threads about who would win in a fight between Bene Gesserit or Aes Sedai. I definitely think there are some good comparisons there.
You’re pretty close in a couple of spots, but twists will occur. And characters will change. I’m sitting on my fingers to keep from saying just who, and how.
The power dynamics between men and women are a cornerstone of the series. You see it in the society of the world, certainly. There’s a clear imbalance that leans toward women (something of a novelty in fiction). That being said, this dynamic is seem more often in Robert Jordan’s writing, as there are very few female characters who don’t look down on men as wool-headed idiots. It tends to get annoying. At least, that’s a popular sentiment among the fan-base (coming from someone who was deeply involved in the online WOT community since the early 2000s).
Gasp!!!
Mat’s Big Mouth could never cause problems
@@@@@Kelsey Jefferson Barrett
A third hand is never a problem if you’re a Motie.
This early in the story, you are only getting the broad outlines of the One Power. How to tap keys lightly around the subject….
Each side needs the other. I won’t get into the mechanics of all of that though. Best you learn that on your own.
What little you know now gets expanded as the story progresses and you start to learn just how the sides are tied together and split apart.
It’s a bit odd reading these articles and hypotheses and questions since I feel like: “I know the answer! I cannot say it, because, spoilers! But this is something I actually know!”
But, as said by KalvinKingsley, it is non-too-spoilery and delightful that the series contains male as well as female heroes, and is not focused solely on one gender or one idividual, for that matter.
BTW: you are picking up so many more hints that I did during my first read!
@@@@@ Celebrinnen: Haha, I can imagine that is a bit odd. It’s not the same as getting to clue me in, but do feel free to have spoilery conversations with the other folks in the comments if you so desire. Just white out the spoilery bits or clearly mark the top of your comments so that I can give them a miss.
And I agree that at least, you know, there ARE women doing things. A step up from Tolkien and the like in that particular sphere. :-)
@austin: I can imagine that it will get annoying for me as well. As far as I’ve gotten in the series, the characterizations themselves don’t bother me as much the inner dialogue of men thinking women are bossy and women thinking men are dumb. Someone of any gender can be bossy or dumb, but having everyone thinking and saying within the naration it is already making it feel more like a stereotyped presentation than I think it would otherwise, if that makes sense. Like Nynaeve, for example. Making her a bossy character isn’t a problem, but as soon as it was observed by Rand that everyone felt that way about her, all my “overused trope!” alarm bells went off.
These chapters are well crafted with some nice character development moments and some subtle and not-so-subtle world building. Well done but not able to discuss specifics other than one big one that I’ll offer in big friendly letters to highlight its importance – YOU NEED TO READ AND DISCUSS THE PROLOGUE. YOU SHOULD COVER THAT BEFORE YOU GET TO THE NEXT CHAPTERS, IMO. IT IS BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN AND YOU’LL UNDERSTAND MUCH MORE ABOUT THE DRAGON (AND HIS ADVERSARY) AND WHY THE POTENTIAL FOR A DRAGON REBORN MAY CAUSE THOUGHTS OF BOTH EXCITEMENT AND FEAR IN WOT WORLD. Recommendation over; sorry about the shouting. – Rob
The gender roles in the series do tend to follow certain cliches, however, I’m confident that you’ll be pleased with the way this divide is presented as the story moves along. Yes, there are certain things that women and men are predisposed to in the book, but throughout the series you’ll see that women are given equal footing, play central roles to the plot and often are the most important and/or powerful characters in a given book. The Aes Sedai are not to be trifled with! Is the gender interplay perfect? Of course not. But it’s hardly offensive, and more often than not, demonstrates powerful women taking charge, kicking butt and taking names. Enjoy!
In reponse to your thinking the men don’t trust Aes Sedai because of their magic when it is the male half of the source that is tainted:
I think you’ll agree with me (now or later) that people don’t trust Aes Sedai partly because of their magic, but mostly because of how manipulative they are. This shows up a lot.
Anyone else notice that Aes Sedai is an anagram for Sea Ideas, or like a sea of knowledge?
Excellent analysis. All I’ll say is that things get to be a bit more complicated regarding gender roles, and the story telling becomes so wonderfully complex that . . . well, you’ll see, won’t you. Enjoy! I look forward to reading more of these.
When I first read the series as a teen, it was with the promise that women featured more prominently than in most epic fantasy–not just in terms of quantity, but quality of roles. It’s interesting to see how things age, though, and how I do as well. I started my own reread last year, and the (apparent) gender essentialism/binary, combined with “men are wool headed/women are nags” narration, really stuck out to me. Of course I know where everything is going, but it still manages to bother me a little–or at least, it bothers me that it didn’t bother me before, if that makes sense. And this isn’t really a criticism I’m leveling, or even a “your fave is problematic” case. It’s just… interesting. To see how the series evolved over so many volumes, how the genre has (and continues to), and (once again) how I as a reader do.
Agree with @2, the balance of strength between men and women end up being really cool plot points later on. Everyone has their individual talents and uses as unique as their personalities
“The difference between the characterization of Brandelwyn al’Vere, the mayor, and the Wisdom Nynaeve al’Meara is striking to me.”
I´d like to defend Nynaeve just a little: keep in mind that she is very young for a Wisdom, which gives people reason to doubt her authority, which in turn gives her reason to tug her braid quite often.
I seem to recall most of the series subtly mocking the assumptions the characters make about gender. Gender-based magic aside, I seem to recall a number of events when a character says anything concrete about the other gender, they’re immediately proven wrong or hypocritical.
@23 IRRC, Nynaeve’s attitude problems are almost all attributed to her need to extract respect by force of personality due to her apparent age.
@eric: I won’t be surprised at all to get to that point. I am interested in this because magic and trickery are often thematically linked in fiction, and because women are often portrayed as/considered to be tricky both in fiction and in real life. So there’s sort of two ways of engaging with the idea, I suppose; how it’s handled within the story for one, and how the choice to make the Aes Sidai work the way they do relates outside of itself, to other works and to our society at large. I am particularly looking forward to seeing how Jordan handles the idea of women having access to a power that men have lost.
@Tessuna: Yeah I see that for sure! I’m less objecting to the person Nynaeve is as to the way she is talked about in the narration. I think there is a distinct difference between giving a character a personality and describing that personality in a fair and non-prejudiced way. If that makes sense? In other words, I think you are right to defend Nynaeve, but I don’t think the narration would defend her in the same way.
@noblehunter: I think this speaks to your comment as well, and I’m definitely going to keep an eye out for future examples of what characters say about gender vs. what the narration says about it. It will be interesting to see.
I may be in the minority again here, but the way the genders talk about each other doesn’t bother me too much. These characters are mostly teenagers – how many of us spent a lot of our teenage years thinking the other gender was just SO STUPID (only me?)? The ones who aren’t teenagers are mostly Aes Sedai who have extended life spans, look far younger than they are, and are always (both rightly and wrongly in many cases) perceived as being up to no good. I also agree with # 24 that each gender’s assumptions about the other are often proven wrong in hilarious ways.
That said, I agree with many other commenters that you will see our characters growing up and learning that you cannot thrive by relying on one gender alone, and there will be some great interactions and team-ups (including my favorite moment of the series, when Rand and Nynaeve remove the taint from saidin). My recommendation would be to take the gender-bashing monologues with a grain of salt and try to enjoy the humor – no man or woman can defeat the Dark One alone!
Oooh, this is fun to read, and you’re definitely more perceptive than I was on my first read-through.
Some notes that are interesting, not spoilery (in that they don’t tell anything about the plot or story not hinted at/implied in the first few chapters, but do have implications on the world and worldbuilding) but are very important for the conversations here.
In this world it is men who are blamed by the culture for Original Sin. In our world many misogynistic people misused the Adam/Eve story to marginalize women. In this world, the same is done but against men. It colours many major gendered interactions in this culture.
In this world, in general, women are in a position of cultural power over men.This is the opposite of our historical society. You’ll notice a lot of the treatment of women against men is very chauvinistic. Women in this world are very often annoying and ‘bossy’. Because they are treating men the way men have, in our world, historically treated women.
Of course, this is only in a couple of the cultures. Jordan did a very interesting thing when he set up his world – he created a gender dynamic that allowed/allows him to explore, in a ‘realistic’ way, gender dynamics very different from our own. Every culture you come across has a different gender dynamic, that is based on that cultures society and background. Some are misogynistic. Some are misandristic. Even horribly so. One in particular is almost perfectly egalitarian between genders, but is horrifically classist. Every culture is different, and none is ‘right’. They’re all just ‘historical’ cultures with their own prejudices and their own behaviours.
The magical gender divide plays a prominent role in facilitating this discussion, and allows him to thoroughly explore these topics in a way that would be much harder without it. This is, after all, one of the greatest uses of fantasy – to create situations where we can examine the world through a light which couldn’t normally be shone on it.
One final note – this is the book series that made me realize just how much cultural misogyny there is in our society (although it’s getting much better, and legal misogyny is almost all gone). It made me realize this because of how frustrated I was with the cultural misandry endemic to many of the cultures here. It took shining that reversed light for things to finally *click* for me. I’m very glad it did.
Any way, enjoy! It’s all very interesting. I hope I haven’t unfairly coloured your opinion on this work too much, one way or another!
As somebody who’s read the series dozens of times, it kind of blows my mind that your initial impression is that “the action and the narration are going to lean very heavily into ‘male’ heroism and strength, that this is their story and it’s going to feel like their world.” I read that and my eyes popped, since one of the defining characteristics of this series is that it takes place in a world where women largely have the cultural upper hand since it was men responsible for “original sin.”
But then I realized… up through this point, the only POV’s you’ve seen have been male: Lews Therin in the prologue, and then Rand since then. One thing Jordan did incredibly well was making sure that each POV strictly and rigidly adhered to what that character actually would have known and thought in that moment, and so you’ve only seen things from male viewpoints so far.
This almost makes me want to start my own reread, to see if the gender roles/imbalances/etc bother me as the same way they did when I first read it. I didn’t read the misandry-culture as a purposeful flip of our own, mostly due to events and relationships that happen later in the series.
One thing I will add to the rest of the comments:
You noticed Moiraine’s claim that men are generally stronger in the power and that is giving you concern… but you’ll learn by Book 4 (maybe earlier, I can’t remember when it’s first mentioned) that women have a corresponding advantage that is ARGUABLY superior to men’s innate strength.
I can assure you, a great deal of the stuff you “learn” about the Power in the early books is actually just widely believed misinformation. Jordan’s worldbuilding skills rival Tolkien.
And you’ll also quickly discover that EVERYTHING about saidin and saidar is different. The way a man lights a fire and the way a woman lights a fire are so different that they can’t even learn to channel from each other. Only a man can teach a man, only a woman can teach a woman. They’re THAT different.
I hope that this doesn’t qualify as spoiler material for you.
The ferry isn’t located at Watch Hill. It’s located at Taren Ferry. Watch Hill is a village halfway between Emonds Field and Taren Ferry.
SPOILERS RELATED TO MY POST ABOVE, WHICH I’LL WHITE OUT:
In thinking that it’s nuts to imagine The Wheel of Time as being a story about male heroism, I realized that the early books and the later books differ vastly on how much of the POV time is spent with male vs. female POV characters.
Eye of the World: 92.96% male POV
The Great Hunt: 68.39%
The Dragon Reborn: 62.95% (first book where the single largest POV is female; Egwene gets about a third of the book from her POV, but the only other female POV’s are two chapters of Nynaeve and tiny slivers from Siuan and Verin)
The Shadow Rising: 60.90%
The Fires of Heaven: 41.68% (first book with predominately female POV’s)
Lord of Chaos: 52.07%
A Crown of Swords: 48% (assuming Shaidar Harran counts as a male)
The Path of Daggers: 36.75% (counting the Gholam as male)
Winter’s Heart: 45.13%
Crossroads of Twilight: 44.95%
Knife of Dreams: 47.08% (counting Loial as male)
The Gathering Storm: 40.45%
The Towers of Midnight: 57.76%
A Memory of Light: 60.44%
New Spring: 26% male.
So, while male POV’s dominated each of the first four books, seven of the next eight books have predominantly female POV’s. Without doing the math, my guess would be that overall there are roughly equal numbers of words from female and male POV’s throughout the series. It just doesn’t appear that way until you get past the Rand-centric first two books (the only books other than New Spring where one person has more than a third of the POV time to themselves).
@Travis: You are right, thanks for the catch.
@neverspeakawordagain: That is what is odd–but also interesting, I hope–about doing a deep analysis on a first read. I can use context clues, and my knowledge of the genre, and my knowledge of general writing structure to make assessments and educated guesses, but that doesn’t mean my impressions will turn out to be correct, or that I won’t change my opinions later on in the read. Also, since this series is sooo long, I am aware that what might be true of book one may very well not apply to, say, book seven. And you are right that the POV is a very tight third person.
All us guys or whatever we are supposed to call ourselves nowadays to be socially correct. If we were wielders of the one power in the days of Rand Al’ Thor, I think we would know who the boss was.
This is actually the first year in 7 that I haven’t done a reread of this series starting in January, it’s definitely interesting seeing some of the thoughts you’re drawing together. One thing that I will mention is that the women’s circle are quite important in their own right in Emonds field, however they are much more considerate of the council and the overinflated feelings of self importance than vice versa, which is why they tend to work behind the scenes a bit more, which could be a part of what leads the younger male characters to view them as manipulative.
As has been said in many comments above, it won’t be a purely male dominated series!
I 100% agree with everything Erunion says in #28 above. BTW, we will meet the one group of people who are decidedly misogynistic (and the most like our world) in Baerlon. That group is almost always depicted as minor antagonists in the story, at least until near the end. They aren’t Evil, but they are evil, at least as a group. Their redemption, which doesn’t take place until the last couple books and ensures that they will be fighting for the Good Guys, is actually one of the more enjoyable story lines.
no group calling themselves “the Children” of something is ever a good thing
As a member of a group sometimes called the Children of Israel, I object.
Relatedly, can anyone remind me whether there are Space Jews in this series?
I really hope you come back and revisit your early posts as you get deeper into the series. You make some very interesting observations that would be worth remarking upon when new information (or events) are presented.
One of the things we must remember is that all men (well, maybe all young men) in this world live under the understanding that if they are unlucky, they will be gifted with powers that are automatically a death sentence. Whether they live on the Main Continent where the death sentence is supposed to be (but not always) administered gently (and I suppose slowly, but from what we know of it is like dying slowly from a horrible disease) or some of the other cultures where the gifted Men are expected to commit suicide in one way or another. This is something held over the heads of all Men, which is why they are very distrustful of women, especially the women who administer “justice”. We already have met one character whose actions in the first several books of the Series are colored by his very personal witnessing of justice being meted out. The Author just hasn’t told us yet about his motivations.
What I love about Robert Jordan’s writing is is that it came before this time of when everything is analyzed through gender specificity today. You say that Rand and the boys don’t listen to Nynaeve because she nags. I would suggest you see this because of your interpretation, same with your interpretation of Moraine. I’ve read this series twice and I am always so impressed with how Robert Jordan writes the female characters and how entertaining their interactions are with each other.
This gem of a series will be enjoyed much more if you avoid translating this world through your lens of what men and women should be like. RJ writes people who are not perfect and that’s what makes this book timeless.
Is there a reason why you skipped the prologue? Or have you skipped it? You’re really missing out if you have.
I for one am not annoyed by the way the genders behave or think about each other in the novels. It’s never, for me, been so exaggerated or out of place as to take me out of the narrative. It’s just how the books are, and to me, reads as believable.
But then, I’ve never been one to fall in line with popular opinion. Mat is so many people’s favorite character that it’s beyond cliche, but I couldn’t STAND him until book 10.
Before anyone starts bashing Nynaeve too hard, I’m just going to preemptively say that anger problems or not, she is the most truly caring character and has a heart of gold and one of the best moral compasses out of anyone in the books.
The cosmological gender binary in here bothers me too, nowadays.
Sweet Aginor, I had forgotten just how sleek, tense, and beautiful this part of the story is. And how innocent everyone is, including but not exclusively the Emond’s Fielders. Spoiler: ///And how much they’ll level up in power, beyond their imaginings. Ironic quote of the day goes to Egwene: “I will be an Aes Sedai, just as soon as I reach Tar Valon.” It’s a longer process than that, dear. ///
I like Lan’s “hasty care” and Thom’s “I am not a cheese for slicing.” And Rand’s bug-swallowing shock when he realized Egwene was enjoying their flight for their lives.
“There must be a difference in what you saw, it seemed to him, depending on whether you saw it as an adventure or forced on you.” Isn’t that the truth. And unbeknownst to Rand, the stories (this book) do make his experiences exciting (to readers).
Interesting that Mat and Perrin are being treated kind of as a unit here, often doing/saying the same things simultaneously.
Question for rereaders:Illian is coastal, so what road goes “beyond” it?
At this point in my first read, I had many questions about Shadowspawn. What exactly is a Dragkhar, and why is it “worse” than Trollocs and Myrddraal? How are Dha’vol Trollocs the “worst” band – are they bigger, smarter, something else? What exactly does it mean that “Fades are Trolloc spawn”? More generally, I wanted to know everything about them that hadn’t yet been told.
Plot-relevant history note: ///In an earlier chapter, Lan said the Dreadlords created Trollocs. RJ has said that the Shadow’s war leaders started being called Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars, and that all of the channelers in the War of the Shadow were Forsaken/Chosen. I don’t know if the books ever state this explicitly, but his thinking and worldbuilding seem to have changed it a bit.///
Possible spoilers about future roles of Shadowspawn
////TEOTW chapters covered so far feature the only times in the entire series that:
— A Trolloc speaks to a human
– A Trolloc is named
— Anyone cares what tribe a Trolloc is in (except one battle where many of their badges are enumerated inconsequentially)
— It’s mentioned that Myrddraal are Trolloc offspring; no wonder so many readers forget about that and ask where Myrddraal come from
— A Dragkhar is noticeably used as a scout, not an assassin or battlefield fighter
— A Dragkhar allegedly talks (to the Myrddraal)
And possibly the only times a Myrddraal is referred to as “he” instead of “it,” but I’m not sure exactly when that ended. ////
What chapters for next week?
If it helps, gender dynamics in Randland are supposed to be inverted from what we know according the the writer, since men thematically have the burden for original sin (going insane from the taint on magic and tectonically rearranging the world), leaving women with the moral upper hand, so to speak (though I personally thought Adam was equally at fault for going along with it). Put in that light, Manetheren is basically the story of Wonder Woman going off to war with the Amazon while Steve Trevor staked at home and nuked the enemy armies when he found out his wife died. Which doesn’t detract from the story, but puts people’s reactions into context.
So the people of Duopotamia are basically the equivalent of a hidden village of Amazons.
One thing you will notice as the series goes on is how character driven the viewpoints are. The chapters are mostly written from a single first person perspective at a time, and this often means that one character’s description and perception of another shades the narrative. At this point, you’re getting mostly the perspective of Rand, and so his view of Nynaeve is shaded by the way she has treated him in the past as well. Over time, as the characters get to know one another and change the way they are described also changes.
For Rand at this point, Nynaeve can be seen like the annoying older cousin who treated him harsher than most older adults because she didn’t have the maturity to know what is fair, and also because she wasn’t given the respect that people who were older than her were given automatically. When the view switches to Nynaeve’s perspective, you’ll see how she views both Rand and Mat and how that shades the way she treats them.
Without spoiling too much, in a sense they are equal. The male half of the source is high risk high reward. You will be destructive, but there’s no telling how crazy you’ll get until your madness gets you killed in 4 or 5 years. Men tend to struggle with most things that aren’t directly related to combat (which is a very small portion of the time spent channeling) whereas the female half is much stronger at well… Pretty much everything else. (I don’t just mean healing but I cant say anything else without getting into compulsion and that leads to spoilers) You’re in for a real treat, and I think you’ll enjoy watching these characters grow. I’m currently on book 10 myself!
I’m with NIk_the_Heratik here. It’s worth paying attention to the older characters’ descriptions as well as the PoV characters inner monologue – contrasting Tam and Rand is particularly interesting.
WoT is particularly interesting because of that tight, character-driven style. Comparing to something like The Name of the Wind is also fun: In NotW, if Kvothe does/thinks something confusing, 99% of the time Kote will explain what was going through his head at the time. WoT doesn’t even come close to making it’s narrators reliable, and particularly in later books chapters from a given character’s pov will often include information they believe to be true that is actually completely wrong. You can either just go with it and be confused/surprised later, or dive back through the preceeding books looking for clues.
As an aside though, the specifics of the gender/magic split in WoT have always annoyed me as well. In particular IIRC there’s a line in the prologue where Ishamael indicates that women were the main healers of the Age of Legends, which breaks the image of that era as a gender-balanced utopia for me.
Thanks so much for writing this – really loving it. Can’t wait for you to meet Cadsuane!
AeronaGreenjoy@45: One minor correction:
///
Myrddraal being offspring of Trollocs is also mentioned in the LoC Prologue, during Osan’gar’s PoV:
And in WH, Ch. 35, also in Osan’gar’s PoV:
///
In addition to what you listed, there are a bunch of other things in the first couple of books that aren’t mentioned again or that have how they work change as the series grows. One of the hazards of writing a series over a period of 20+ years, I guess.
The division of elements to be skewed male or female is also something you see in modern Western Neo-Paganism, but in most of those traditions, Earth and Water are the female elements and Fire and Air are the male. When I first read these books I thought it was an interesting inversion. And yes, we do see that there are exceptions, as well as the general rule that men and women are equally strong in Spirit.
Kelsey Jefferson Barrett: . In your second review, you used the example from Earthsea. That was an excellent example of how a magic system can be divided between the sexes. Our main Hero, Ged, is found in a small community, mother dead and father a blacksmith. He is recognized by the village witch, who teaches him whatever she knows of magic, eventually he is sent a distance away to a local Wizard. That Wizard teaches him what he knows and eventually sends him on to the Wizard school on Roke. He studies there learning many things. As we go from the least magical to the highest, the ability to help for women is discarded on the lowest level. Women are good for herbal cures, and child birthing. The kind of stuff that men had little interest. I find it interesting that the women were discribed as having a terrible body odor, which tended to keep folks from wanting to be near them. The men tended to have a very sexist attitude about women in general and especially toward village witches. From reading the series, I gained the impression that the magics were different, born inside of them and not something that one could learn through hard work. The rare case of a powerful woman was only mentioned in the terms of how evil she was. Note:. Evil magic was different than male or female magic. Of course, the fourth book ends with a promise that we will see more out of Tehanu, when she has been taught magic by Ged, former Archmage of Earthsea. She has already shown at not quite ten, the ability to speak to dragons. Plus her abilities may be tied to humans with the ability to turn into dragons. Is she a dragon child?
#17 RobMRobM: you are correct. The Prologue does set the scene, as well as showing the interplay in the past between the Dragon and his adversary. Yes, the scene happened two thousand years ago, but those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it over and over. For my own part, you are also missing something by not reading the Prequel, New Spring. It teaches you a lot about the strength of the characters and the reasons behind some of their thinking. The evil was starting up even then, but it was moving very slowly.
49 – I am not sure men are only stronger at war-related things. I have always felt that that was more a function of the male Forsaken happening to lead the armies due to their strength in earth, etc. that we feel that way on the Dark side, and on the light side (rest of post hidden for spoilers): The Ashaman came about in a time when the Light is at war, so therefore they focus on channeling that is useful in war. There is a scene later (in the last book I believe, or the second to last) where Lews Therin/Rand channels during a bath with one of the women (I think Aviendha) and remarks that the One Power was used for all sorts of similar frivolous things during his age.
Sounds a bit like “this one is destined to restore balance to the Force.”
And we all know how that ended.
And I don’t remember if it appears this early in the books but ***SNIFF***
Gender relations is very much a theme of this series, and I didn’t pick up on it until MUCH later. (But then I did read this book at about age 13-15.)
I think Rand is a little bit more unreliable as a narrator than you’re assuming. Just because he thinks everyone believes Nynaeve is bossy doesn’t mean it’s true. Until the viewpoints get spread out more, the unreliability of the narrators isn’t as apparent.
Classic philosophy question of ends justifying the means arises right at the end of this section. If the boys did decide to go their own way, split up, and get away from Moirane, would she be justified in killing them?
Oh mannn reading this I was practically jumping up and down in my seat – I’m remembering how amazing it was to get immersed in this world, and how excited I was in high school to meet somebody (at a summer science camp) who also read the books (I think by then only 8 or 9 of them were out) and we talked for HOURS about theories, analysis, etc.
The gender relations are definitely a huge part of this and while they can sometimes stray into essentialism, I think it can be also helpful to think about it as two forces we can attribute to something called feminine and masculine. You are definitely astute in wondering how much of the world’s current state has to do with not working together. And while the stereotypes are there in the culture, as others have pointed out, there are historic reasons for that (and for the flip of men being the ones considered ‘responsible’ and so not privy to the same kind of power) and they are often subverted – the stereotypes aren’t necessarily something that the book is promoting (although some of the relationship dynamics are…um…well, how do you feel about spanking?)
Anyway, it definitely gets pretty nuanced and interesting and I can’t wait to see what you think of [my favorite character]. I don’t want to give away who my favorite is, since in a way that kind of spoils the eventual badassness of the character. And one thing I will say – this is maybe the ONLY series I can think of where when I come up with a list of my top 5 characters (and there are hundreds of characters) ALL of them are women, and all of them are very different, interesting, complex, and awesome in different ways.
I read Dune after I read Wheel of Time and definitely twigged to the comparison immediately. Some of the Fremen prophecies regarding Paul are also VERY similar to some stuff that will come up later in the series.
I have to agree with someone up thread. Realizing that the first half of the book is only in Rand’s POV shifts the overall look you would have at this moment.
I read the books for the first time in 1994, when I was about 14. My last full reread was in 2010, at age 33. Such a different relationship with the teenagers and Ny and the others. I can’t even figure out the internal bias I picked up due to reading these books. But I will say, I never “saw” a lack of women in the books I read. Maybe I was lucky in my choices.
Maybe it is because Moraine, Ny, Egwene, Polgara (Eddings), and Talia (Lackey) were among the first women I meet in my reading of fantasy books. So when I read the boys fest that is tLotR, I was not bothered by the boy’s road trip.
I do remember being annoyed with Ny to begin with. I love her later, and as I grew older, related to her more.
Being 14 reading about a bunch of 16-18 year olds off on an adventure is grand.
Being 30+ reading about them – I’m more incline to roll my eyes at them. But they are “my teenagers” so I still love them.
The biggest problem I have with this series as a whole (and really, with a LOT of fiction) is that the characters never talk to one another. With WoT, they justify a lot of it through the “boys are wool-headed idiots”/”girls are bossy nagging braid-tugging harpies” arguments, but it goes beyond that. All of our main characters (and that includes Moiraine, Lan, and Thom, as well as the Emond’s Fielders, as well as a couple of others you haven’t met yet) go through some pretty life-changing things as the story progresses, things that they’re afraid to mention to their friends because they’re afraid of how it’ll be perceived. a good 50% of the story could be condensed if Rand, Perrin, and Mat would actually talk to one another and if any one of the 3 would ever talk to any one of the females. :p
It is definitely interesting to me to see your comments about how the OP works, and your predictions for the path of the story. As someone (sorry, I don’t remember who) mentioned, while saidin and saidar are the yin/yang of the OP, and need to work in concert with one another, they are very different beasts. As a (hopefully non-spoilery) idea, one of them needs to be lured, while the other needs to be tamed. You’ll definitely learn more about that as you go along. Men cannot teach women to channel, nor can women teach men… and since the only men who have been able to channel since LTT are either dead or insane, this causes a bit of a problem.
I read the first book in 1994, when I was just out of college, and I think it was the first book I ever read that was a deliberate First Book In A Series… I was out of town for a job interview and had only brought book 1 with me. I literally threw the book across the room when it ended, because IT WASN’T AN ENDING! LOL! I’ve stuck with the series through thick and thin, though, and despite my frustration and eye-rolling at most of the characters at one point or another, it’s still in my top 5 series I’ve ever read.
And I’m sure you’re wrong about Mat… his mouth will never ever get him or his friends in trouble. Never. :-D
I can’t even begin to address your excellent questions without spoilers. Suffice to say that, while you can tell that the books were written before non-binary gender became normalized in academic discourse, let alone fantasy, and there are a couple of cringeworthy bits here and there, overall Jordan is far more interesting and self-aware about these issues that you’ve raised than he is old-school. Look out for exceptions to the rules and norms defined in the first few chapters, and never forget that Jordan writes in very close third person for whichever viewpoint character he’s in. Don’t assume that you know a character until you’ve seen inside his or her head: before that you’ve seen how the viewpoint character perceives them! And IMHO, one of his strengths is that he doesn’t have any absolutely authoritative characters about the real nature of the world–everyone is expressing opinion, received wisdom, or scholarly conclusions that may not be valid.
I have read this series from cover to cover in its entirety both in book format and audio format. I absolutely love this series. Since I found it in audio format I have listened to it probably more than I care to mention. And if you were to ask me about a specific place in any one of the books I could probably almost quote it to you.
In any case I can assure you that you have yet to meet the true villains in this storyline. They are more numerous than you yet know. They come from more walks of life than I will mention. You are definitely in for a deliciously delightful read.
In regards to the balance of power between sexes and magics. While trying to avoid too many spoilers, I will say be patient, and you will see the flaws and virtues in both. As well as understand that Lews Therin Telamon “The Dragon” “kinslayer” was not alone in his fall. And not the only one to blame for what happened. You will read about “the 100 Companions” and notice that they were all men. There is another reason for this other than men’s pride.
On a side note. One of the interesting things about this series is that in an Interview with Robert Jordan (rest his soul) He revealed that this series was only supposed to be 3 books, but it soon became an epic tale.
With that I will say enjoy.
You are a much more perceptive reader than I am, which makes me think you will find the eventual reveal of how the experiences of channeling saidin and saidar differ to be pretty funny.
Jordan was my second epic fantasy, after Eddings, and for a while I thought of them as the serious one and the funny one. Jordan has his moments of humor too, many of them connected with the evident war of the sexes going on here. The actual moment that changed my mind on this point, though, was an actual joke that Rand tells in book 6, the point of which was not to be considered funny by the listeners. It was funny to me.
“Maybe it has something to do with the water . . .”
#60. Braid_tug. When I first started reading the series, I was seventy years old and freshly recovered from going blind with cataracts. I loved the full of energy young people and all the complexity of the story. I came in with all the advantages, the prequel was written, as were all the books that Jordan had written. I did have to order up the three Sanderson volumes as my daughter had not purchased them. I was able to purchase them new through Amazon partners for about ten dollars a hard bound book. I loved the WOT world sooooo much that it was difficult to break away. I went around that loop at least four times, still wanting more. This is the first time that I have been back to series, and it feels like home. Before I saw TOR’s offer, I had been thinking about rereading the series, and this will hopefully solve some mysteries. I took last weekend to read New Spring again because for me, it will always come first. I find that once I start reading, it is hard to stop. Currently I am on chapter 39 in The Eye of the World. Yes, I have a lot of time to read because I live alone and I am retired. My health has not permitted me to be very busy away from home, but with books, my world is huge.
Yes, some of those young people bother me, Mat with his ancient Dagger, stroking it like a furred pet, needs to keep his mouth shut. Nynaeve is another one. From the beginning her temper is terrible and she comes across as all knowing, even when she knows nothing. It is facinating to watch her interplay with Lan. He really irritates her when she first joins the party.
Well, I tried, I can’t do TOR spoilers, so I guess, I am limited to what we have covered.
@51: ///Thanks! Even I had forgotten those quotes, 12-13 years after reading the books. So it’s mentioned later, and readers still forget. But I’ve forgotten countless things about WoT that didn’t involve Shadowspawn. What other one-time events related to Shadowspawn have I missed in the book so far? I was working from memory for chapters 1-7. I just now remembered Mat playing a prank with flour-covered dogs as “ghost hounds,” which are never mentioned again. What else?///
Ghost hounds are mentioned again, they’re the darkhounds just with a provincial spin
AeroneGreenjoy @67: I was actually surprised that there were only those two additional mentions (I used Encyclopaedia WoT to find them, so I may have missed anything in AMoL, although I doubt there was anything there); I guess everything I remember about that subject comes from either the Guide or the Companion.
@61: YES! I remember all through the early/middle books getting frustrated and losing patience with the characters’ failure to communicate – with the Aes Sedai it’s a deliberate policy, but all the characters are at fault. A significant fraction of the plot crises are caused by misunderstanding and failure to share information. It’s almost like an I Love Lucy plot. I did express irritation that RJ felt the need to rely on such devices to extend an already super-long saga. But I still love the series.
I’m really liking this series and looking forward to each entry. It’s been awhile since I read Eye of The World and I’m hoping to jump into book two soon and this is a great, detailed refresher of what happened in book one so I won’t be completely lost.
#66 – It is funny how differently everyone reads these books. I am just going back for my first re-read of the WoT series, having read it for the first time in 2016 when I was on maternity leave with my son and looking to get out of the house without actually getting out of the house, if you know what I mean. I actually felt during this re-read that Nynaeve was already experiencing strong feelings for Lan when she joined the party, as evidenced by her defense of him at the inn in Baerlon. I was feeling like a big dummy for missing it when I read it the first time and your assessment makes me feel less so; I am glad I am not the only one who changes their mind and notices different nuances with every re-read. These books are a treasure despite their flaws and I really hope you enjoy them, Kelsey Jefferson Barrett!
This section where Moiraine tells Egwene about Saidar could be seen as the author addressing the reader about the Power and the world. We are not yet ready to receive all the information about the world.
“Ask,” Moiraine was saying, “and if I can tell you now I will. Understand, there is much for which you are not yet ready, things you cannot learn until you have learned other things which require still others to be learned before them. But ask what you will.”
I haven’t read all the comments yet so this may already have been said and it’s not really a spoiler but may be considered a minor one by some purists.
Men tend to be a little stronger in the power (not Always), but women can form circles without men and overcome them through joined strength. Men can’t form circles of power without women.
@melbo Apologies to you and those who have been asking: Next week’s read will cover Chapter 14- 17! I meant to get that into the body of the post before it went up, definitely will for next week.
Hi Kelsey – nice to meet you virtually. I’ve been very much enjoying your take on the early chapters. I do think and strongly recommend that you should schedule in a read of the original Prologue – Dragonmount. It includes information needed to understand some of the later chapters and, in and of itself, is a great read worthy of analysis before you get too far into the book. Perhaps you should schedule it for the week after next. In order to make it more robust as a weekly discussion, I’d recommend also including a discussion of the alternative “Ravens” prologue that accompanied the YA-oriented split versions of EOTW (i.e., From the Two Rivers and To the Blight). That one is less critical but it still adds interesting insight on several of the principal Two Rivers characters.
So many good discussions going on here this week.
A lot of people have pointed out that I am gonna learn a lot more about the way that saidin and saidar work and that it’s not nearly as simplistic as the information provided by Moiraine would lead one to believe. I can’t speak to that yet, of course, but as some people have asked, yes I fully plan to revisit my early assertions as the story and world develop. That I think will be one of the most interesting things about documenting my read on the first time through.
I will say that while I appreciate that the abilities of male wielders and female wielders are equal in power (in Power? haha, lame joke), I do maintain that the idea of separate but equal is pretty problematic. That isn’t to say that it won’t be interesting, though! I remain open to the story giving me a more nuanced opinion on the matter.
Shout out to those who have pointed out that the narration doesn’t always stay on Rand’s POV! It will be really cool to see how that changes the feel of the story.
REGARDING EVERYONE ASKING ABOUT THE PROLOGUE
In part 4, two weeks from now, I will be covering the Prologue as well as some of the dream sequences. Instead of doing a new set of chapters for the week, I am going to look back at the stuff I have skipped over and do some deeper investigation of it. I know that format might not make sense to y’all as long time readers, but I think for the purpose of analysis it will work well for me. So hang tight! I promise I have not forgotten it.
I am not going to read New Spring right now, however. I appreciate that it provides backstory but I am going to stick to chronological publishing order, at least for the time being.
@78 – Excellent. (And I support deferring on New Spring – it works better later IMO for reasons we can’t discuss at this point in text).
@Dr. Thanatos (#57): True facts, I am working right now on Part 4 of the read and I made the exact same analogy about the Chosen One. Great minds, eh?
Honestly as the series went on I got more and more uncomfortable with the gender dynamic. Spoiler whited out: Ultimately I was getting the impression that the author really, I mean really, had a fetish for “humbling proud women”. Apparently they’ve been naughty girls and all need spankings. /
@moryssasedai
You should have known from the start: “There are neither beginnings nor ending to the turning of the Wheel of Time”
Slight spoiler warning!
There is an inherent difference in how men and women control the one power and what they experience while channeling. Women control by submitting to Saidar. An oft repeated expression is the woman is the banks of the river. They do not control the river but do contain and guide it. It is a joy and sweetness to hold the power.
Men are much different. They must seize control. Saidin is an unbridled storm and a torrent of molten iron. The male half is wild and for the male channeler, holding the male half to walk the knife edge of survival. But at the same time, the constant fighting for survival and control is intoxicating.
I think this does play into a more traditional view of gender roles but also reinforces the opposing yet complimentary basis of Saidar and Saidin.
Nice write-up. You will enjoy the book and series. There are hotheads that are both male and female. One of the strengths of this series is the diversity of the characters. There is a big difference between Egwene and Nynaeve. Same as Mat, Perrin and Rand are quite different. And more characters come and go. The world that gets created is a special one that will stick with you the rest of your life if you read all 14 (15 with prequel) books. Even if that means suffering through books 7-10 which are slower and don’t advance the overall plot much.
That same power dynamic you note with the boy trusting the male figures and not really paying attention to the female leaders is almost directly repeated by the female side. This goes on throughout the series. The same arguments are presented from both sides. The younger women look up to their older female role models and don’t pay much attention to the males. I think it’s fairly natural that they try to emulate who they expect to be one day. If anything the females more openly disrespect the males than vice versa.
I think it’s mostly human nature to think that “I” or “My Group” knows better than them, whether it’s true or not. You have to live your life based on the assumtion that you know what’s “right” whether it’s truley right or not. That’s going to break down into the Two Rivers folk thinking that they’re living their lives better than folks in Illean and Edmunds Field folk thinking they’re got it right over Terran Ferry folk, then men over women, adults over kids, etc…
Their attitude toward Nynaeve isn’t due to her being a woman. It’s due to the fact that she’s not much older than them, but cops a bad attitude to compensate for how she feels others view her as a younger women filling a role that’s supposed to come with respect. She feels like she has to fight for it whether that’s true or not. It somewhat justified in that some people do view her as too young and it’s almost a catch 22 in that her attitude doesn’t win her friends. I think it’s a good story line where you see her fighting and clawing to get respect and later on just acting in a way that commands respect.
As for Aes Sedai, again, it’s not necessarily because they’re women. People rightly fear them, because again and again throughout the series, they’ll chew people up and spit them out to serve their needs. They manipulate and deceive to meet their end goals. Even the ones trying to save the world. So that fear is justified. Although, you’ll find that while people fear or are untrusting of Aes Sedai, they down right poop themselves if they think you’re a male wielding the power.
As a funny note, I can’t read Draghkar, without adding Noir to the end. :) Anyone else? Draghkar Noir, huh, huh?
It’s cool you caught Rand’s unconsious channeling. I didn’t catch that till my 2nd-3rd read through, though I started reading them regularly when I was about 13yrs old.
Also…
***Spoiler****
Gandolf Dies
I for one never had a problem with the differences in strength between the males and females in the storyline. I recognize that, in the real world, the genders are only equal in terms of how we are all humans. Other than that there are definite differences between the two genders and anyone who says differently is trying to sell something. Just as it is in the real world, the storyline provides us with the same dichotomy, although Jordan does a good job of mixing and sometimes completely flipping the roles played in his world as compared to ours. That being said it takes both genders, working in unison, to create a world worth living in. Jordan illustrates that with growing clarity throughout his narrative and shines a critical light on the widening divide in our own world between the sexes. A posthumous kudos to Jordan for keeping it real…in a Fantasy setting!!!
I also had an idea that Rand as a Dragon committed errors and as Dragon Reborn healed them.
What if
Wheel’s each cycle of 7 ages alternates between a Male and a Female Dragon. In this spinning it was Rand – a male channeler.
In next 7 ages rotation of Wheel, we get a Saidar weilding She-Dragon??
In A Song of Ice and Fire series, Maester Aemon says that Dragons have fluid gender. They can alternate between Male and Female. I like and appreciate this idea of Dragon being Above and Free of Bondages of a Specific Gender.
Dragon must be just a symbol of a Champion of the Light and this Champion must be Free from ties to any one Gender.
@88, that sounds like a great idea but it wasn’t Jordan’s. His linking biological sex to gender and making it immutable doesn’t fit what we now believe to be true but that’s what he wrote and you have to either accept it for the purposes of story or stop reading.
I’m also reading for the first time, in preparation for watching the TV series. I noticed that in the conversation about the “Five Powers,” no one mentioned Spirit as being favored by any gender. Personally, if Spirit involves what I think it could, it might be the most powerful one. I look forward to learning more about the One Power and how it works.
Also, in the scene with the gatekeeper of Baerlon, did anyone else get flashbacks to the gatekeeper from The Wizard of Oz?